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  1. #11
    Master Butters's Avatar
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    @Bushwalker8
    @FireFox58
    Fair go guys, i'm not a complete novice. I didn't say that it couldn't display a topo, it just won't work like in an outdoor device and if you use one for road or highway use it'll likely eventually route you incorrectly, even dangerously. I've had one try to send me the wrong way round a roundabout, or traffic circle you fellows might call them.

    A word of warning about this firmware modding now. You may notice that the Universal Firmware Patcher thread is no longer visible here. There's a good reason for that so be very careful about openly offering modifications to allow the illegal use of unlocked maps. That's why i avoided addressing his problem directly. Blind Freddy would know that dezl 770 has protected firmware.
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  3. #12
    Important User Garmin DEZL 770 does not show topo map
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    osiris4isis's Avatar
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    How is posting Universal Firmware Patcher violates Garmin copyright? The tool wasn't created by Garmin and if any copyright needed to be enforced it should be the creator of the tool, not Garmin.
    Do not PM me with questions. That's what a forum is for.

  4. #13
    Important User Garmin DEZL 770 does not show topo map FireFox58's Avatar
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    @Butters
    I did not mean to say that you are a "novice", if I gave this impression I apologize.
    I simply wanted to say that the Topo Maps are displayed, even if with restrictions of functionality and use also on the automotive models.
    As for the Warning on publishing Patch for the Firmware, I agree with the above statement from @osiris4isis: "why should not it be allowed?"
    In any case, let us decide the MOD. If this is not allowed, just delete it

  5. #14
    Master Butters's Avatar
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    Tex: "How is posting Universal Firmware Patcher violates Garmin copyright?" Mate, you know i'm not a scaredy-cat usually right? But the answer to your question's pretty obvious surely? It breaches Garmin's EULA not to modify their device firmware and it's sole purpose is to allow use of illegally modified (unlocked) mapping on their protected devices.

    @FireFox58
    Sorry, i overreacted a bit there. But if you knew what i know you'd understand. Can't say more other than be warned that this behavior is being watched externally, that's what's being flagged by the thread disappearing. Don't forget the bitter lesson of last year please.

  6. #15
    Important User Garmin DEZL 770 does not show topo map
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    osiris4isis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters View Post
    Tex: "How is posting Universal Firmware Patcher violates Garmin copyright?" Mate, you know i'm not a scaredy-cat usually right? But the answer to your question's pretty obvious surely? It breaches Garmin's EULA not to modify their device firmware and it's sole purpose is to allow use of illegally modified (unlocked) mapping on their protected devices.
    Ok, lets think about this for a moment. Garmin (or any entity) can't claim copyright over something that doesn't belong to them. They didn't write the patcher, and posting the patcher isn't posting ANY Garmin material. Posting any Garmin map (modified via patching) is not allow because the map posted is originally own by them (that is why this forum conformed to that request.) But posting a tool to do something should not violates any law governing what you use the tool to do. It's like saying you can't post a wrench because it can open a bolt on a Toyota because Toyota own the car with that bolt. Utter rubbish.

    Garmin (or any entity) has the right to protect their work. However, they do NOT have the right to force everything their way to protect it. The tool isn't modifying their work, the person using that tool is. So Garmin can try to enforce their copyright on the people using the tool not the person giving the tool. That is the "lawfully" way to do it..

    Still don't understand? If you follow the way Garmin wants (and think) then you can't provide any answer/solution to any of their "defective" products because you are not allow to "modified" from it's original problematic state. Which means a Garmin forum group would really consisting of only announcement of their products (assuming that they don't own the copyright on that) which makes your forum a Garmin advertising site. Garmin should focus on fixing problem with their updater and less concern with people trying to unlock maps. Their commercial products are dying. Perhaps they should change the way they sell their products (always with lifetime map so not to worry about people "stealing" it)
    Last edited by osiris4isis; 14th November 2018 at 07:49 PM.
    Do not PM me with questions. That's what a forum is for.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Butters View Post
    I didn't say that it couldn't display a topo, it just won't work like in an outdoor device and if you use one for road or highway use it'll likely eventually route you incorrectly, even dangerously.
    Sorry was not suggesting you were a novice, simply correcting the impression your post may have inadvertently left for others given your status here.

    Correct that topo's in Nuvi's do not have the full features they enable in my Epix or Rino's, however a good topo with embedded DEM in a suitable Nuvi such as for example the 3597 or Street Pilot on Android does provide some extra functionality such as great 3D rendering when driving in hilly or mountainous terrain which greatly assists visual navigation. And the missing functionality generally is not applicable to the driving use case anyway. E.g. gradient of the hike route etc.

    And many topos such as my local Aust & NZ Topo do provide excellent full routing, including down to the level of remote 4WD track networks. Apart from some potential misrouting due to breaks in the vector data (which also can occur in CN as the regional source data for roads could be the same) I've never the last 300,000 km of touring here experienced a dangerous functional error such as your roundabout example. Nor in my travels in the European Alps on the wrong side of the road for that matter but the sample distances have considerably shorter.

    That's not to say there aren't risks as clearly there are equipment and regional/data differences but the point is it's not a clear "likely" to happen and as with most things due consideration should be applied.

    Cheers

  8. #17
    Master Butters's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osiris4isis View Post
    Ok, lets think about this for a moment. Garmin (or any entity) can't claim copyright over something that doesn't belong to them. They didn't write the patcher, and posting the patcher isn't posting ANY Garmin material. Posting any Garmin map (modified via patching) is not allow because the map posted is originally own by them (that is why this forum conformed to that request.)...
    What I've marked in red in the above quote quite hits the nail on the head there mate. It's the ppl using the tool who breach the EULA. You own only the device as a chattel, what you (or even someone only in possession of the firmware/software without a device) don't own is the firmware/software/map data used to run a device and you merely have a license to use that stuff subject to the constrains you agreed to as contained in the End User LICENSING Agreement, which by implication you passively agree to when buying and operating a device or merely coming into possession of the firmware/software/map data. Immediately you save a change of one Byte of their data you break that legally enforceable agreement which is subject to local laws in Kansas USA regardless of where it's used in the world. I know you don't post SD BIN file kits or patched RGN files but others do. Someone is going to get adverse attention. That's the warning info i've been given by someone whom i trust. I am not wanting to scare, just forewarn well-meaning ppl trying to help others out of kindness who unfortunately might then be made an example of. The long arm of retribution has already reached from Olathe to Europe in a few cases over map copyright breaches that we know of, so no one is immune. There are probably others around the world who've been pursued too but we aren't aware of. I'll let the EULA do any more talking:
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  9. #18
    Important User Garmin DEZL 770 does not show topo map
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    osiris4isis's Avatar
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    Actually, if you are the owner of something, it's yours and you can do with it what you want. If I own a DVD, I can burn it if I want. I can decode it and do what I want with the data. Except, make money by selling that copy of it (I can still make money by selling the original). I can create a proggy that cracked their encryption and post it. What I can not do is post the cracked data. But I think my point is not getting across.
    1. If Garmin like the law set in EULA, they need to be consistent and not do half and half. You can not claimed your right while violating other people right.
    2. If a forum is forced to be responsible for indirectly violating EULA, then pretty much all forums are in violations. Because unless you just only post announcements, you are in violation when trying to help solved a problem.
    3. Finally, guns don't killed people, people killed people. A patch/cracked posted does nothing until someone do something with it. Forum should not be held responsible for people action. There is a US law* (don't know if it's world wide) and that is exactly what it said. That is why Google, Facebook, Youtube, etc... still survived and doing well.

    BTW, agreeing to a EULA is like agreeing to android privacy, you have no choice if you want to use the device (even though, they are free to collect any data on you and do what they want with it.) The US is currently reviewing this silly requirement and Congress might pass new law concerning it. The EU already is looking at this as well and hopefully will fined Google mega $$$.

    How many people would buy Garmin (or any product) if they have to agree with the following:
    You are not allow to fix any problem with this device, if there is any issue, you must send it back to us to fix it. That's right, if there is a fix, you can't use it, you must send it back. If there is a better way to do something, you can't do it; you must stick to the original way.
    Judging from the declining Garmin sale and discontinued products, not many people.

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    Last edited by osiris4isis; 15th November 2018 at 06:29 AM.
    Do not PM me with questions. That's what a forum is for.

  10. #19
    Master Butters's Avatar
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    No, i did get your point totally, not sure you're getting the finer nuances of what's been told to me and i'm in turn trying to pass on here though. Let's look at what's happened previously, Garmin tracked down and took action against (at least) 3 ppl from this forum for posting unlocked maps. If you read the EULA (Licensing agreement) you absolutely don't own any of the data be it firmware, software or mapping data. It's licensed to you on the condition that you don't interfere with it. They flogged those 3 ppl and goodness knows who else based on the extreme likelihood Garmin lost maps sales where potential buyers instead of buying maps took the offer of maps totally free from forums, such as this one did openly until last year. So, some points:

    1. They are legally entitled to protect their 'soft' products against piracy by protecting 'hard' devices against using unauthorized maps through firmware changes.
    2. They are further legally entitled to demand that any data they license isn't modified or reverse-engineered. (That's precisely why they license it not sell it).
    3. Modifying firmware is treated no differently in the EULA to modifying mapping data.
    4. They have already moved firmly against ppl who unlock and/or were supplying such modified maps. Modifying firmware might seem different, however it's no different at all in terms of the EULA. i.e It's the same prohibition against modifying mapping data as modifying firmware.
    5. Therefore it's reasonable that because ultimately the purpose of patching firmware is also be able to illegally use unlocked maps and thereby cost Garmin map sales revenue that they will indeed look at the ppl who use the patcher. Not the author of the Patcher, not the ppl who download and use the Patcher. Likely the ppl they'll track down are the facilitators who make kits and RGNs for others to use.
    6. History shows they didn't pursue Wu Yongzheng, the author of gimgunlock, they pursued the prominent ppl who used his tool to unlock the maps and/or post unlocked maps for others to use. They didn't seem to pursue the end user ppl either, those downloaders who just took advantage even though they got the ultimate advantage and didn't pay the facilitators who got nothing in return.

    Sorry guys, you can believe this or not. History does tend to repeat in my experience. Ignore or poo-hoo the risk, it's your call. I believe the warning i got is credible because of it's previously reliable and Garmin-knowledgeable source.

  11. #20
    Important User Garmin DEZL 770 does not show topo map
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    osiris4isis's Avatar
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    BTW, the act of modifying data (firmware, map, etc...) and propagating it in lieu of a EULA is a violation, that I agreed. I just don't think any means of providing such capability (proggy, info, etc...) should be part of the EULA. There is a distinction of providing a tool and using a tool. On point 6, that is correct. the author of gimgunlock didn't propagate any cracked data. As a matter of fact, he never posted his tool anywhere (it was someone else who posted it here)

    The end game is this:
    So is all Garmin patcher to be removed from this forum? How about all of the replies to help people with issues with their devices?
    Do not PM me with questions. That's what a forum is for.

 

 

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